Building a healthy relationship with money with Jacquette M Timmons.
The following interview is a transcript excerpt from The Heallist Podcast episode. Listen to the full audio version below and subscribe to get notified of new episodes.
Get ready to dive deep into the topic of financial well-being in this insightful episode of the Heallist podcast. Join your host, Yuli, as she engages in a profound conversation with the renowned financial behaviorist and coach, Jacquette M Timmons. Together, they explore the intricate relationship between money and emotions, delve into the realms of limiting beliefs, and uncover the profound impact of self-worth on one's financial journey, particularly within the realm of modern healers and holistic practitioners.
With over two decades of experience in the investment industry, Jacquette brings a unique, human-centered approach to financial coaching that goes beyond the numbers. Her insights stem from her belief that money is a powerful force driven by emotions, and she holds an MBA in finance and an undergrad in marketing from a design school, allowing her to approach financial matters with a designer's mindset.
Tune in to this enlightening conversation to transform your relationship with money and unlock new possibilities for abundance.
How to reduce friction in your relationship with money?
Yuli Ziv: Why do you think there are so many blocks and limiting beliefs around money that people have?
Jacquette M Timmons: Primarily because some people don't really understand that at its core, money is simply a tool, a symbol of exchange. But within that symbol is a whole bunch of stuff, embedded are our beliefs, behaviors, and expectations. It is influenced by what you saw growing up, familial factors, cultural factors, social and professional influences, and broader political and economic events. All of that affects how you experience money.
The challenge that most people don't really hone in is the fact that they are having an experience with money. Therefore, they lose sight of the fact that they are, by default, having a relationship with money. If you only think of it as an external thing you are not connected to, you miss out on all the signals that can help you see where that friction might be and what you need to work on internally for a better external money experience.
Yuli Ziv: I love that definition. Because basically, the way you said it, money is just another tool of transformation that we humans are given.
Jacquette M Timmons: Yes. If we live in a different society, the way we get paid for our services or pay somebody else for their services might be a different instrument, but we would still have a relationship with that instrument.
Yuli Ziv: From your experience, working with diverse people, what's the common thread of our money relationships?
Jacquette M Timmons: Let's start with the fact that I believe, and what I’ve seen is that most people don't actually view themselves as having a relationship with money. If you don't view yourself as having one, it's hard to take the time to figure out what you might want to do to improve it. But let's say you now understand that you do have a relationship with it. It is navigating tension between the relationship you have versus the relationship you might want to have or wish you had. We're constantly navigating that gap between what is and the vision or idea of how it is supposed to be. Oftentimes, that latter part of how it is supposed to be is driven by what you see other people doing or having or the messages you might have received about what you should be doing or having. Trying to navigate the broad spectrum of messages and all these different inputs, and sometimes how that conflicts with your reality is part of the challenge.
Yuli Ziv: Yes, I'm trying to process that. Basically, what you're saying is that it's one of those relationships not necessarily taught in school. Unless you attend maybe a financial school or an MBA, even then, I'm not sure if they teach your relationship with money.
Jacquette M Timmons: I have my MBA, and they're not teaching you about your relationship with money; that's for sure. They teach you how to crunch the numbers. The big challenge is that we've been conditioned to have our only metric of financial success is what the numbers look like.
I even have a signature talk titled "Financial Success Doesn't Start in Your Wallet." The idea is that just making sure two and two add up to four doesn't mean you're all set. That's part of the challenge with the traditional approach to money. It tells you all the smart, prudent things to do: spend less than you earn, save, have minimal to no debt, invest. Those are all wise actions.
But what is missed in the conversation around all these tactical money matters is the nuance. The nuance changes depending upon the context, situation, and variables you are weighing. So doing all the "right" things when everything is perfect is a heck of a lot easier than when you might have just lost your job, your biggest client, or had an illness. Being able to do those things in different contexts requires room for adjusting.
Oftentimes, the conversation around money is very rigid because it merely looks at the numbers and doesn't factor in the human aspect. That's why I always say I focus on the human side of money because it's about creating grace for situations where you might not be able to do what you want, need, or ought to do to the degree you want because your circumstances have changed.
How to build a relationship with money?
Jacquette M Timmons: Declaring what you want money to do for you, right? Going through a creative process to figure out your vision for money. For example, when working with clients, or during a workshop or speaking engagement, I weave in this idea. At the end of the day, there are four broad things you can do with your money: earn it, save it, invest it, and spend it. Typically, we're taught to approach these four domains by taking what we've earned and then making decisions about saving, investing, and spending. Instead, I ask people to think about what they want money to do for them.
How much do you want to save, and why is it important in different timeframes? How do you want to invest, considering various dimensions like financial, social (giving money away), time, physical, mental, spiritual, and emotional investments in yourself and your desired lifestyle? Starting here opens you up to ask, "What do I need to earn to make this happen?" If you run a business, it becomes, "What does my business need to generate in revenue to pay me the salary to achieve this?"
I'm on a mission to remind fellow entrepreneurs not to give their business everything, including your financial future. This means being intentional about your business model, sales process, and pricing. Create a healthy, profitable, and cashflow-positive business that aligns with what you need money to do for you personally.
I've found that sacrificing everything for my business while neglecting my personal financial situation is unsustainable. First, figure out your vision and what you want money to do for you personally. Then, focus on your strategy, goals, habits, and systems to make it happen.
The relationship between your business and your self-worth
Yuli Ziv: Do you have any practical steps on how to approach that? I'll give you an example that came to mind as you were talking. I see some holistic practitioner entrepreneurs don't even have an incorporated business or a business bank account. It's all kind of merged into one persona—their personality, personal life, and practice. I'm curious about your perspective on this.
Jacquette M Timmons: So much of our identities are wrapped up in our business. Making the time to be intentional about clearly distinguishing the business and their personality is a challenge for many.
Yuli Ziv: Are there any other steps people can take to not only establish the right structure in their practice but also protect themselves from anything that might go wrong?
Jacquette M Timmons: One practical aspect is paying yourself through a payroll system. It enables you to see clearly if you are charging enough to be sustainable and profitable at both the business and personal level. Let's say, for example, you're a therapist and you charge $220 per session. You don't get the full $220. Some needs to be set aside for taxes, business savings, and what you can pay yourself.
Then, you have operating expenses for your business. When you break it all down, are you content with the leftover amount? Are you satisfied with what's left after paying yourself and setting aside for savings, taxes, and expenses? If not, this indicates you need to reevaluate your price point, the number of clients you see, or how you structure your engagements.
The practical aspects always lead back to decisions regarding your relationship with money and your business. You want to ensure that, more often than not, you're in a situation with a healthy relationship with both your money and your business.
Yuli Ziv: You touched on one of the very important topics as you were speaking: the relationship between yourself and your business. On the topic of charging for your services and this broader subject of self-worth, which is one of my favorite topics, especially in this space of healers, can you give us an entry point into that?
Jacquette M Timmons: I know it's a strong word, but it truly is how I feel—I hate the phrase "charge what you're worth." Here's why. I'm black, and my heritage is Jamaican American. I have an ancestral history where someone's humanity has been tied to a dollar amount. Even if that's the furthest thing from someone's mind, that's all I envision when someone uses the phrase "charge what you're worth." Even if we separate my personal reaction to it, it also misses the point.
When you are charging, you're charging for your expertise, education, experience, judgment, skills, talents, and the container within which you work with someone. All of that is wrapped up in it, and it's connected to you, but it is not you. So, when people say, "charge what you're worth," I really want them to think about charging for the value they bring to the table—to answer someone's questions, help them address their challenges or frustrations, or facilitate their goals and desires. That's what you're charging for. It's not about your worth as an individual.
In many professions, especially in healing professions, there's this idea that if you're not charging a certain amount, you must not be worth it. That's incorrect. On the flip side, it perpetuates the notion that your prices always have to be accessible. No, they don't. You might need to come to terms with what is and isn't accessible.
I always counsel people: if you want to make your services available to those who cannot afford your current price, you have to be in a healthy financial position yourself. Otherwise, you're not doing anyone a service because you won't be able to show up and give your best. Those are the reasons why I have such a strong reaction to it.
The importance of separating value from personal worth
Yuli Ziv: First of all, thank you for shedding light on this topic of personal worth because I never looked at it that way before, and it really resonated with me. By separating it from your personal worth, it makes it easier because it's not a part of you, your personality, or who you are. It's the value you provide, as you said so beautifully. It's a deep and valid point.
The second portion of what you said also resonates deeply, about people feeling that their services need to be accessible. Especially in the healing space, when you have the gift of helping people, and many of those in need of healing often lack the extra resources to try various alternative modalities. It adds another layer of complexity. But as you mentioned, the root cause is personal. It's the feeling that because you have this gift or ability, you must make it accessible to people.
This applies not just to healers but to anyone building a business, especially small businesses with big missions. It's indeed a significant question to navigate.
Jacquette M Timmons: Oh, it really is. I always say to people, if you want to go on a deep personal development mission, start a business and confront real big money challenges and issues. But one of the things you just said about the whole notion of accessibility being a challenge for all types of businesses, especially those with a big mission, reminds me of a professor from Yale. Her name is Dr. Amy Wu.
She did this study on how we work, and the summary of it is that if you have a job, you just show up, do the work, and the exchange is you get paid for the time you're there and you go about your business. If you want a career, there are elements of a job in that equation. But you're also interested in and willing to do whatever is required to proceed through the ladder of growth in that company, educational institution, or government position.
If you have a calling though, that's where you feel really attached to the mission, the work, and the impact of that work, and you can get lost in it. It's the kind of thing where you often have this idea that you could do this even if you don't get paid. Oftentimes, that leads to people undercharging because they have this idea that they can do this even if they didn't get paid for it. So, it is even more important for people building or sustaining a business with a huge mission or in a healing profession to make sure they're not falling into the invisible trap of thinking they could do this and not get paid for it.
How to separate out your craft from your business?
Jacquette M Timmons: I think two things. One is to separate out your craft versus the business of your craft. They are on two different tracks, but hopefully going in the same direction that you have to be working on. What are you doing to get better at your craft, oftentimes is very different than what you might need to do to get better at the business of your craft. If you think about the key dimensions of the business of your craft, your financials, operations, marketing, and sales and revenue.
When you are a healer, the presumption is you have more than one way of working with someone, so what does that look like if you were to draw a pie chart? How much of those different ways of working with people are currently making up your pie? How much do you need that to be in order to not only fulfill the financial goals that you have for your business but also the financial goals that you have for yourself?
Yuli Ziv: Yes, it's a beautiful exercise. Many solo business owners lack the capacity, time, or inclination to truly analyze their businesses and examine the numbers. In most cases, about 20% of your clients generate 80% of your revenue. Sometimes, it's a matter of denial. Some people prefer not to confront the truth, thinking things are fine without needing to delve deeper into understanding why.
Jacquette M Timmons: Because even if you don't like the information you see, it's insight. That insight can help you make better choices in the future. Part of the reason for denial is self-judgment and self-criticism. You might need to do some things differently, work on something, or improve something. But if you don't face the numbers, you lose out on the feedback they're giving you. Even though I focus on getting people to pay attention to their relationship with money, I don't negate the power of the numbers themselves. Don't just focus on the numbers. There's a lot of insight you can get if you are in conversation. Just like any other relationship, communication and listening make it stronger and better.
Daily or weekly, some sort of frequent conversation is important because money is always giving you feedback, telling you to do more or less of something, and how to get money to work for you. Even if you go through a dry season, every business has a season, and you can learn more about your relationship with money during lean times. This feedback tells you what you did, the result, and why you might not like the result. You can then reverse engineer the situation and make different choices moving forward.
Another thing to keep in mind is that with every new level of financial success comes the need for your roles and responsibilities to change in some capacity, financially, emotionally, and maybe even spiritually. Sometimes we're not prepared for these changes, which can cause stress and anxiety. It's important to realize that once you reach a financial goal, you're in a new territory and may need to do things differently to achieve your next goal. People aren't always prepared for the weirdness that can come with getting what they want.
The spiritual perspective on money
Jacquette M Timmons: For me, the way I'm defining spiritual is that there's something bigger than you at play, and there is a lesson beyond the dollars. We get closer to understanding our spiritual relationship with money when things are challenging and not going as well as we want. That's probably when we pay attention. Otherwise, things are going well and we think, "Well, yeah." But when things aren't going well, you have to rely on different things. You either have to rely on, or come into relationship with, an inner aspect of yourself that maybe you haven't before or haven't cultivated. Or maybe there's a trust issue, maybe a self-trust issue, that is happening and can only be highlighted when you're in the midst of a challenge. Maybe it's a tap on the shoulder that says you've been doing A, B, C, or D, and that's helped you get here. But that's not going to help you move forward.
What I'm trying to get you to do is the spiritual part. I'm trying to get you to prepare for that. I need you to change some things that might be your mindset, the behaviors that you're practicing, or the systems that you have in place. I need you to get ready.
So, to me, the spiritual part is both: there's something bigger, and it's something that is tapping you on the shoulder to say, "I need you to pay attention to this. Because if you don't, you're not going to be prepared for what comes next."
