Healer Q&A: Creating meaningful retreat experiences with Phoebe Leona

Phoebe is the Founder of The nOMad Collective, a destination for retreat leaders, retreat properties and retreat seekers.She is s TEDx Speaker and podcast host of The Space In Between, the author of Dear Radiant One...An Emotional Recovery Story and Transformational Guide to Embody the Dance of Life, which was recently nominated Best Spiritual Memoir by OMTimes, a Teacher & Embodiment guide.

Navigating the Business of Retreats

Yuli Ziv: Who are the practitioners most suited for retreats? Are there modalities that better suit the retreat experience? Post-pandemic, people are traveling and seeking new experiences. They need to be in that retreat environment for full transformation. What are some of the latest trends you are seeing?

Phoebe Leona: I do see trends that are mostly co-creative. Since the pandemic, I've noticed people are ready to travel again and ready for this awakening, but there are still many people that are scared, hesitant to buy their ticket because they're waiting for the next shoe to drop. Many retreat leaders are awakening, feeling the need to give back, bring people into community, and take them on deeper experiences. However, some people aren't quite ready to come along for the ride.

In my own podcast today, I shared that when you're in a place of leadership, you can't take it personally if they're not ready yet. It's about being grounded and trusting that what you have to offer, whether it's that modality or some wisdom, the right people will show up at the right time.

There are many trends out there, but I focus on what your gift is and not to follow trends but to be grounded in who you are, what your gift is, and why you feel you need to create this experience for people. When you can dig into that why, that's when you magnetize the right people. Instead of following what others are doing, like breath work or sound healing, ask yourself what your modality is, what your unique role and gift for this world are.

Another piece of advice I have is that, moving into the age of Aquarius, there's more collaborative energy and a desire to not work in a silo anymore and release the competitive nature. We want to come together and work more co-creatively. However, there's also fear of not taking full responsibility for leading their own retreat. 

So, for those wanting to lean into co-creating and bringing other modalities, make sure you know your why. Are you doing this truly from a place of wanting to collaborate, or is it to tide a little as a leader? There's not a lot of clear communication and understanding of each person's role and responsibilities, which can get tricky, so I guide my leaders to get clear on their why in terms of what they're offering and why they're doing what they're doing.

The Power of Collaboration in Enhancing Retreat Experiences

Yuli Ziv: That's incredible and a really insightful point about collaborations. I see many beautiful collaborations happening in this space, and it's always interesting to see behind the scenes. How does it work? If I were a practitioner today, even practicing a couple of different modalities, there's tremendous value in collaborating with complementary practitioners. 

As a consumer, when I think about my own retreats that I've attended, many were with multiple teachers. I'm attracted to the idea of getting a little bit of all their teachings, knowing it will combine into a beautiful story and complement each other.

Phoebe Leona: It's important to maintain collaborative energy but also to know who is in charge, not in a hierarchical way, but who will take the lead. Sometimes, if roles aren't clear, we might have different threads of thought and ideas that might not become cohesive. There might not necessarily be one of the facilitators; maybe it's someone who can see a bird's eye view. 

That's what I do with my retreat leaders or guides. I help them see what they don't see because they're coming with what they know but might not know what the other person is bringing. If we have someone to steer the ship, to keep it cohesive and know everybody's gifts, participants can really get the full experience of each modality, each person, and the gift they have to give. This helps release the egos. 

Balancing Ego with Mission in Retreat Leadership

Phoebe Leona: Even though we're healers and teachers, we still have egos and can get a bit caught up. When I work with co-leading retreats, there's one where I feel I'm taking the lead and facilitating the itinerary, but there's another where it's her vision, and I have to lean back and listen to what she wants to create for her people. I let my ego go, even though I've been doing retreats for 10 years. 

It's about how I can support her vision, which feels more energetically flowing than letting ego get in the way. Sometimes people come in, bring whatever they need, and are not really involved in the whole process. It's important to be part of the entire process, support other facilitators, and be part of the transformation that participants are taking part in.

Yuli Ziv: It's something all of us battle every day: our egos versus our mission. It's something that comes up for me a lot, and I always have to check with myself, as I imagine many practitioners do. I can envision a situation where you might bring clients that you've nurtured relationships with for the past 10 years. 

What happens if you're coming in as a co-leader or a guest teacher in the retreat, but most of the clients are yours? Putting that aside and having the client's interest in mind first is crucial. This is all for them. We're not doing retreats just to brag to our followers or to post beautiful pictures. It's all about the client and their journey at the end of the day. It can be easy to overlook that when you step into a leadership role and have those responsibilities, to remember that this is all about the client journey and we're here to serve them.

Phoebe Leona: A couple of thoughts came through about a message I recently shared in my community: we can't take it personally. We have to get out of our own way, echoing your dialogue about the ego. We can't take it personally if people aren't showing up at that time, or if there's a conflict, or if someone wants to do something different in that co-creative space and your idea doesn't get executed. 

We have to be in alignment with our mission. What is our overall intention? Like you beautifully said at the beginning of this episode, what's our intention to enter into together? When going into co-creative experiences, let's have a co-creative mission, an intention together, so we can always use that as our heartbeat. That's our purpose now. When ego gets involved and we start to take things personally, we can go back to that heartbeat, ensuring we are focused on the experience we're offering to the client.

Co-Creative Logistics and Support

Yuli Ziv: Can you talk more about your role and what you've created? Many want to host a retreat but don't want to deal with location scouting or management. I tell them you're the person to talk to. It's a brilliant business, and I'd love to understand more about how you assist someone who wants to focus on teaching their craft and connecting with clients but not the logistics.

Phoebe Leona: I've been supporting people for 10 years, finding joy in it, and now I'm shifting to a leadership role where I can handle logistics and mentor practitioners through the experience. This brings me joy, empowering new leaders. My role varies. I can be a mentor, helping with mental and emotional blocks, or handle logistics for those who don't want to. 

My business operates like a travel agency, covering various liabilities. Practitioners still need their general liability, but we handle other insurances for retreats, which many don't know about. We manage registrations, contracts, and depending on where they are in the process, we can assist from the beginning or take over if they're in over their head. We recommend properties we've worked with and handle negotiations, deposits, and payments, offering support wherever needed, from mentorship to full logistical management.

Yuli Ziv: About the actual onsite retreat, can you also help people by being there for them and handling those logistics?

Phoebe Leona: Yes, exactly. We handle all the preparations, guiding them from the idea phase to facilitation. I can be there on site, or if not me personally, someone from my team. Alternatively, depending on their process stage, I might encourage them to have an assistant they already know and trust. It depends on our initial envisioning session, where I ask about their financial goals, desired number of participants, location preferences, and their reasons behind these choices. 

If they want a small group, they might not need me there but could use an assistant, perhaps one of their students. For larger events within their budget, I can be hired to assist onsite, ensuring details like towels in rooms or dietary preferences are managed and that the staff takes care of the clients properly.

Yuli Ziv: That's incredible because one of the major fears for people I've talked to is balancing being on location with holding space for their clients without getting drawn into minor details and logistics. It's a travel experience, and unexpected issues can arise that require immediate attention. If, for example, you're conducting a sound bath and a guest needs urgent attention, having someone to handle these situations is a beautiful service that surely relieves a lot of people.

Phoebe Leona: I always share with them the importance of space holding, balancing the masculine energy required to manage logistics with the divine feminine energy needed to create transformative spaces. It's challenging to do both, especially in settings like a 24-hour, seven-day retreat, potentially on the other side of the world. 

It's crucial for retreat leaders to take care of themselves, set boundaries, ensure personal space, and have someone to delegate to, allowing them some respite. This support is vital because they're holding so much, and if they're going through deep transformation with their clients, they will feel it too. Without proper time, space, and resources, things can become imbalanced within themselves and the group.

Financial Strategies for Retreat Planning

Yuli Ziv: One of the other major fears, besides taking care of people, is the financial risk involved. Retreats vary greatly, from more affordable to luxury options, much like the travel industry. To generalize, are there any practices or setups you've learned over the years to minimize the financial risk for individual practitioners? 

What steps can we offer to make retreats more attainable for those not in a position to put down a large deposit but who have a solid community, great interest from their clients, and want to take that leap of faith? How can we help them reach a place of ease and comfort, confidently managing the financial risks?

Phoebe Leona: One, just logistically, we can sit there in that first call and ask, “How much do you have upfront that you could potentially put down for a deposit?” And then we can find a place, because not all properties require 20% of the deposit. Some require quite a minimal amount.

But a lot of times, there’s mental and emotional blocks around money. So, even if you have a huge following, you might also have a big block around finances. You might have hundreds of people who are ready to do it, but there still might be a block that you've created.

Two questions that I ask are, “What's the number of people that you feel would be fine with your nervous system?” Because some people say, “I want 30 people and I want to make $30,000.” I ask them, “Is your nervous system okay with that?”

It's exciting, but it's also the unknown too, so if they're not ready for it and they're just saying numbers just because they want to pull them out of a hat, because it sounds really good and sexy, we have to ask, “Can you really truly feel that?”

I actually had to let go of a client because she came in with these really big ideas, and I just said, “I don't feel that you're ready for this yet. Your nervous system is not ready.” And it came out in ways where she was questioning and doubting me through every step that I was taking. I said to her, “You have to trust me, and you have to trust yourself. If you don't, then there's going to be lots of obstacles that come up.” It doesn't matter if you have a goal of six people or 16 or 5,000, or just break even to 20,000. If you're not ready for it yet, you're going to have zero.

Yuli Ziv: Yes, that's a great way to put it. In terms of the financial process, besides asking people what their comfortable amount to put up front is, do you create a budget together? How does that process work? Is it at the beginning or once you know more of their idea?

Phoebe Leona: Yes, we sit down, pretty much in the very first call. It depends on where they are. If it's just an idea, we'll do a whole envisioning session, brainstorming the location and the experience they want to create. But if they already have that and come to me with it, then we get the numbers in a spreadsheet. We look at how much it costs at a property per person, all of their expenses, whether they have to fly there, pay for their room—since some retreats cover the retreat leader and some don't, and some do if you get X amount of people. We consider all expenses: staying an extra day, bringing another facilitator, gifts, excursions not included in the package per person from the property. 

Once we have this number, I ask how much they want to make and what feels good to charge. We break it down by a realistic amount of people, which would be the profit per person. I keep asking how that feels, even though we're looking at spreadsheet and numbers, to ensure there's no wobbling and they feel good about it. 

This is important because there are so many types of retreats, and if people question why it's so cheap or expensive, you need to be grounded and passionate in your explanation, whether it's about bringing guest facilitators or offering luxury accommodation. Your energy must be confident to sell the experience effectively.

Yuli Ziv: And you probably also need to know your clients, being realistic about understanding the demographics you're working with. You might be into luxurious, exotic experiences, but if most of your clients come with abundance issues or anxieties...

Phoebe Leona: We're not taking them to a five-star hotel if they have abundance issues and they have to pay $10,000. I've seen that done and it's not something I align with. That's a good point because I had a situation where I ask, "Who are your people?" We need to know who your client is and what their demographic is. 

I have a sheet where they journal about their ideal client, what they do, how they spend their money, how they spend their time, and how they experience their free time. We delve into this, including the demographics, because if you're saying you have people with abundance issues but want to attract those ready to invest in themselves, you don't have those people right now. 

We need to work with who you are serving already and consider if you want to continue serving them. We have to ensure who you are serving now and where you want to go aligns with the opportunity you're giving them in this retreat.

Building and Expanding Clientele through Retreats

Yuli Ziv: Do you see practitioners attracting new clients through retreats, or do they mostly rely on their existing client base? Is there an opportunity to use a retreat to reach a new audience, to expand or maybe take a leap into a new niche, or do you recommend minimizing that risk and really relying on your existing audience?

Phoebe Leona: It depends on how much risk one is willing to take. If you have a following and people are ready to join you, but you no longer wish to teach them, you're taking a risk. You might be walking alone until you find your new tribe. I sit with people to dig deeper, asking why they feel the need to shift their niche completely or how they might create some overlap for expansion rather than leaving their old tribe behind. I encourage them to meditate on it and ensure they are clear on why they are shifting.

The Role of Community and Support in Retreat Success

Yuli Ziv: What about someone hosting a retreat for the first time who is unsure if their audience is interested? They feel there might be interest but haven't tested it. Any advice for first-timers willing to take the leap?

Phoebe Leona: For first-timers unsure about their audience's interest, I advise asking them directly. If you don't have a mailing list, ask in your classes or among your friends. For those who've recently undergone a significant spiritual awakening or completed a certification and feel called to offer retreats but lack a base, I suggest reaching out to those excited about your journey. 

Simply ask if they would attend your retreat. If aiming for 15 participants, ensure at least five are genuinely interested before proceeding. We can arrange for these committed followers to pay a deposit, helping secure the property. This approach allows you to take risks while feeling supported.

I gave this advice to my clients the other day. If you're not quite sure, ask them. If you don't have a mailing list, ask the people you think would be interested. Ask in your class, ask your friends. If you have a dedicated following willing to support you, adjustments can be made so they contribute a deposit for securing the property. There are ways to take risks while feeling supported.

Yuli Ziv: That's great advice. I love the idea of asking for support. Sometimes, clients or people who have followed you for years are willing to support your journey. We're often surprised by the willingness of people to help when we approach them with acts of service.

Phoebe Leona: Yes and remember, they’re supporting us, but we’re supporting them too. It’s a reciprocal relationship. Sometimes, retreat leaders say, “I don’t want to burden them. I don’t want to put it out there.” They start to feel small. But I tell them, “No, we need you. We need you to offer what you’re offering. They’re craving it. They can’t wait for it.” Maybe they’re not jumping up and down just yet because they haven’t experienced it, but they’re curious. Just be consistent and continue to put it out there. Get people on board. Let them refer to their friends. People love helping others who are serving the world. It makes them feel good too.The following interview is a transcript excerpt from The Heallist Podcast episode. Listen to the full audio version below and subscribe to get notified of new episodes.